As my oldest friend and PEN-15's resident bad-ass, Donna, has been intrigued but also had a slightly raised eyebrow about everything I've written for HIEROPHANT. We had the idea that we'd sit down and she'd ask me about everything behind it, what went into it, and the whole process.
We don't want to label it an interview because that would be incredibly egotistical. Instead, it's just two best friends having a conversation.
Thank you to my homegirl, Aly, for taking super stylish photos that somehow make us look 14 again(!)
TW: Suicide, mental health, various symptoms of Borderline Personaility Disorder
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Donna: so, Ives... Let's start off with why you wanted to do this record?
Ivy: I guess ...I felt like I got a point where I just needed to make music about how having BPD has really affected me. Buuut... at the same time, after how Leave Home ended up, as I've mentioned to you all I am now 100% avoiding bringing that into PEN-15. It doesn't feel fair to you all and I don't want us to be "a BPD band". I mean yeah, there's still gonna end up songs that might have that kind of introspective sadness and longing, which is fine, but what's not fine is going full-on void, total fucking darkness. Just... yeah, I don't want that to be a part of us and I think that separating these things will be good for us as a band too. Like, if there's an existing outlet for all of that stuff then it frees up... haha I guess the... creative pipeline for the more fun stuff? If that makes sense.
Donna: no, absolutely. Like, I really do get that you haven't done this as some ego thing? Like, it does feel like it's necessary really to kind of explain how you've been feeling this past year or so?
Ivy: Thank you, that really means a lot, and definitely; I wanted to convey the actual experiences I've had with BPD and hopefully through that hopefully raise an awareness to show what a horrible, horrible condition it is. And... to do that I wanted to show it at its absolute WORST. No romanticizing of it, just to be the most brutally honest about the experience of living and with this and make the whole record as ugly as possible. I mean music-wise I obviously wanted it to be catchy, have some total bangers, but the majority of the lyrics probably sound borderline psychotic? But that's honestly what this... disease, at its worst, can do to you. It absolutely fucks your head and makes life SO fucking difficult and painful at times, but people really do not understand that it's actually a really serious medical condition that sufferers can have very, very little control of.
Donna: no, of course.
Ivy: I also wanted the catharsis of being able to say "look... I don't think you understand that this is all the shit I go through on an often daily basis, but here it is and I'm trying my best"
Donna: do you feel on a personal level it's helped?
Ivy: yeah, I do think so? I just needed to get all of this out and exorcise it a bit. I think like with anything it's good to drag all these things out of your head so they're not just festering and driving you crazy. Also, when you have something like this I think it's validating, for me at least, to see and hear someone else going through what you're going through. So if, hypothetically, it were to give anyone that kind of validation too so they felt less alone then that would be a really great thing for me too.
Donna: how was the experience different to doing our stuff with PEN-15?
Ivy: so the process really was MAINLY playing around with synthesizers. While there's some guitar on there, the writing was mainly toying around and seeing what happened or basically humming a melody to Suze and her then turning that into the start of a song. I mean, musically it's obviously worlds apart from PEN-15, and that was super interesting to delve into, but I honestly could NOT have done it without Suze. I do feel bad that the record is only down as Ivy Fernandez and not Ivy and Suze or something, because she took all these loose ideas I had and helped me make them into actual things. Haha I mean, you know how she loves fucking around with all her electronic stuff so it was like a dream come true for her. Honestly, I love her so much. Aaaand there's no way I wasn't doing it without roping you and Mercedes in too! I love you guys and it just wouldn't have felt right.
Donna: no, yeah, I had an absolute blast playing drums on that stuff! It was super fun and I love that you got us involved. Along with the music, the vocal style is super different too. How did you find that?
Ivy: I liked it! It was really challenging doing something so different and being more softer and in the upper registers, rather than being raw and shouty, but I enjoyed it, it was fun doing something I haven't done before.
Donna: what about the lyrics? Was that any different to writing PEN-15 songs?
Ivy: It was actually! The first couple I wrote how I usually would, but then as it got going it became a bit more... kind of stream of consciousness I guess, and a lot more structured around how the rhythm and flow would be rather than necessarily trying to be, I dunno, clever maybe? Yeah, I just didn't pressure myself as much and just wrote what I wrote. I wouldn't go as far as saying it's a "concept album", but I did want to try and cover all of the different aspects that it makes you feel. Each song is specifically "themed" to that?
Donna: I'm not gonna lie, even though you've obviously wanted to be, I guess, a bit playful and flippant with the delivery, I've got to say, especially knowing you, it is quite hard to listen to. I know that's the point, to show this thing at its worst, but holy fuck, dude... Like, I knew you've felt like shit a lot of the time but yeah... The one about you going through how you've tried and how you'd hypothetically kill yourself...
Ivy: yeah...
Donna: ...sorry, that wasn't a question and I didn't want to... Just, fuck, dude, you're my oldest friend and I love you SO much. It just breaks my heart that you might ever feel like this.
Ivy: I know... I love you too, Don'.
Donna: it is really heavy stuff but I'm glad you getting it out there has helped a bit. Why on that basis did you choose the name HIEROPHANT?
Ivy: ...I meannnn, mostly that I just like the word! Before I'd even started any songs it was honestly the first thing that came into my head. Hierophant. I like the esoteric...ness(?) of it being a holy interpreter of mystic secrets. Not that I am either of those things, of course. I just really liked that quality that it added. Annoyingly, it's traditionally seen as a male role, so I was going through justifying it as I was reclaiming or repurposing it in a feminist way but nah, I just thought it sounded cool.
Donna: that's as good a reason as any! Did you have any influences with the music?
Ivy: I guess, weirdly, the two of the things that kicked it off in my head were Lana Del Rey and Taylor Swift, who both obviously sound NOTHING like what's on here. I was listening through a lot of BPD coded music and, while it's presented under a very polished and sophisticated, quote unquote, "pop" veneer, the raw, confessional, unapologetic, caustic darkness of their songs were a BIG inspiration.
Donna: huh. Yeah, I guess I kind of see where you're coming from. Like, when you actually listen to their lyrics it's very much NOT what you think it is.
Ivy: Exactly. Musically there's definitely a hint of the new Gaga with the avant-pop aspect. I also wanted a pretty big House type vibe too.
Donna: oh yeah, what's that bar you love that plays House?
Ivy: Marble!
Donna: haha yeah, good times.
Ivy: So yeah, that kind of vibe was a big thing. The song Copy of A by Nine Inch Nails came in my head when I was starting it too, how it starts quite lofi but becomes very glitchy and chaotic... The glitchiness I wanted to be a BIG theme and presence to... I guess to represent how with BPD your head can feel broken and be absolutely all over the place? And also, the of switching styles, and even genres, does weirdly mirror the VERY BPD thing of reinventing yourself constantly.
Donna: huh.
Ivy: But yeah, like I mentioned Suze has been a MASSIVE part on this. I'd have the basic song and then she'd go "welllll... how about if I press this button and make it do THIS?!". Haha I honestly do not know what she was actually doing most of the time, I just knew that I liked it. It's definitely ended up as much her album as it is mine - in a good way. The best way!
Also on the guitar ones there's Pendulum and The Prodigy vibes in there. Actually, I originally didn't want to REALLY have any guitar upfront, I wanted this as far from PEN-15 as possible, but then going through different styles and landing on kind of drum and bass, trap, and big beat crossover stuff I thought it would be rude not to have you and Mercedes kicking it and Suze doing a couple of face-melting solos. Haha oh and getting you to do some 'uh's on ivy's gon' give it to ya! I loved that.
Donna: hahah it was fun. Sad as it is, I really do like that song but man, the last song kicking it into drum n bass comes out of nowhere! Like there's obviously a couple of others with guitar up front, but otherwise the whole thing is kinda low and moody then suddenly BOOM. How you kick into shouting and screaming it's like "yeah, that's my girl". Haha not that I'm biased or anything, playing the drums on it...
Ivy: duuuude, you killed it! And on ivy's gon' give it to ya, I absolutely LOVE what you did on that.
Donna: ahhh, thank you, I'm glad you liked it and it was so fun breaking in my new e-kit! With SHE IS A DANGER it does sort of feel like the album ends a bit positive I guess? Haha I mean, despite you calling everyone cunts. It is very "look, I have this fucking awful disease and if you're not going to accept that about me and be understanding then that's a YOU problem"
Ivy: yeah, I mean you wouldn't tell someone who is autistic to stop being autistic? Or a war vet STOP BEING FUCKING TRAUMATISED, YOU PUSSY. I'm not at all saying it's a free pass and that I should be able to act in the very worst ways, but the lack of tolerance and acceptance and people instantly pushing you away really does REALLY exacerbate it. That does NOT help you get better. Like, when I ended up in a really bad point last year and someone I had, up until then, really liked and respected, who ironically is really big on acceptance around neurodiversity, told me "yeah... you are doing it to yourself, though" I was like... how. fucking. dare you.
Donna: yeah, that REALLY fucking sucked. I was like... whaaat the actual fuck? It's a good job I don't know them because I was NOT happy at that.
Ivy: yeah...
Donna: but yeah. So, I really have to ask... how was it rolling around in the mud soaking wet on a cold, wet March morn' for the album photos?
Ivy: haha duuuuuuude... FUCK! I mean, no-one can say I haven't suffered for my art! That was some shit.
Donna: I really can imagine...
Ivy: Jesus, it was a case of "have we got what we need? Good, then let's fucking go!". Haha it seemed like a good idea at the time. I guess it looks cool, at least, I really like how the art has turned out and represents the vibe of the record, so all good.
Donna: definitely, it looks awesome! And honestly, I know you're supposed to be looking all haggard full-on drenched and with no make-up and everything but, total homo, you super look pretty too.
Ivy: awww, Don'. Haha and also, I've saved all your asses from us potentially ever having had a similar idea for any of our records!
Donna: haha yeah, I may have had to call a veto on that one. I don't mind at all getting wet and muddy riding my bike, but I probably have to draw the line at rolling around in the mud in some dirty-ass pond.
Ivy: And that is why you're the sensible big sis who stops us doing stupid shit!
Donna: haha nah, sometimes her brain is too big and she gets carried away but Suze knows when stuff is a bad idea. You and Mercedes, though? Honestly... that you pair of fuckers made it out of high school is a miracle.
Ivy: Aww but you love us!
Donna: haha and it's a good job. Anyway, where were we at? I can't remember what I was going to ask... Oh, I think that was it anyways so we're all good.
Ivy: Ah thank you, that was fun. We should absolutely do it again some time! Yeah, do a solo album, Don'!
Donna: haha who the fuck do you think I am, Phil Collins?
Ivy: You could totally kick Phil Collins' ass! Haha metaphorically. Not now, obviously, that would be elder abuse.
Donna: haha I think we should derail this train of conversation before we end up getting a strongly worded letter from the Collins estate. Ivy, dude, a pleasure as always.
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If you were affected by any of the themese or subjects discussed the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline provides free and confidential emotional support to people in suicidal crisis or emotional distress 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, across the United States and its territories.
HIEROPHANT will be released on all major digital platforms on 05.01.26 and is available now to order on vinyl via elasticStage.
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